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#1 User is offline   grole Icon

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 10:52 AM

Chet

Just did a view new posts and reached the conclusion that you need to include some sleep in your schedule mate :huh:

Last Action
Today, 10:45 AM Last post by: Chet
Today, 07:22 AM Last post by: Chet
Today, 06:18 AM Last post by: Chet
Today, 04:20 AM Last post by: Chet
Today, 12:03 AM Last post by: Chet
Yesterday, 10:59 PM Last post by: Chet

and thats just the ones where you were last to post!

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**Moved from Chets TROG** - C.
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#2 User is offline   Chet Icon

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 10:53 AM

M'eh...sleep later ;)

Cheers bud, but TBH...had 3 hours sleep last night - and TBH I feel f***ing great - better than usual

And I've noticed that a bunch of times on or around 3 hours sleep! :huh:

And I feel sh*te if/when I have 8-9 hours sleep...
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#3 User is offline   Will Walshe Icon

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 11:09 AM

View PostChet, on Aug 22 2008, 11:53 AM, said:

M'eh...sleep later ;)

Cheers bud, but TBH...had 3 hours sleep last night - and TBH I feel f***ing great - better than usual

And I've noticed that a bunch of times on or around 3 hours sleep! :huh:

And I feel sh*te if/when I have 8-9 hours sleep...


Wait for it...
QUOTE (Ed Flood @ Feb 24 2009, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Reading up on Pavel's stuff but I'm unsure as to whether I can trust a man who can't afford a shirt.
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#4 User is offline   Chet Icon

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 11:10 AM

You mean a drop in energy later on??
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#5 User is offline   Matt M Icon

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 11:56 AM

Yeah. When you hit 30. ;) You have the first burst of youth on your side, but it doesn't last forever. :D
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#6 User is offline   Will Walshe Icon

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 04:41 PM

Aye, maybe you can defer it with coffee if you're lucky
QUOTE (Ed Flood @ Feb 24 2009, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Reading up on Pavel's stuff but I'm unsure as to whether I can trust a man who can't afford a shirt.
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#7 User is offline   Davie Icon

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 04:53 PM

lots and lots of coffee
You are a MAN... take that Zone diet and throw it back at Sears and tell him "f*** you, I'm eating food without counting it". Embrace the 200+ pound range, bro, hug it...
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#8 User is offline   Chet Icon

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 05:21 PM

Until a couple of days ago I was cold turkey on the coffee.

Now its a couple in the morning and that's it.

Lol.

;)
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#9 User is offline   Franz29 Icon

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 07:57 PM

Hmmmm Cold Turkey and coffee.......... ;)
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#10 User is offline   Paul Icon

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 06:27 AM

Statistically speaking, you are far more likely to die earlier (as someone who sleeps less than 5 hours a night) than those who regularly sleep for 7-8 hours or more a night.
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#11 User is offline   Paul Icon

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 06:31 AM

ALSO..

Did you know that after you have been awake for more than 17 hours your nervous system is affected in such a way that your reflexes match that of someone who is over the legal drink-drive limit?
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#12 User is offline   nickyhusky Icon

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 02:42 PM

heh heh, you tell him, Paul. Let's all gang up on Chet!

I saw some TV programme that was studying sleep, and they experimented with making people cut down to 6 hours sleep, and they actually did better than on 7-8. They did say it varied with the individual though, and performance (this was in normal life, not training) went down at less than 6 hours.

Many top athletes sleep more hours than most people, so Chet I really think you should try to get at least 6 hours.
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#13 User is offline   Will Walshe Icon

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 05:39 PM

Robb Wolf's advice is to get as much sleep as possible without getting divorced or fired. I think it's a good rule, and I can start using words like "melatonin" and "prolactin" if you don't believe it's important.
QUOTE (Ed Flood @ Feb 24 2009, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Reading up on Pavel's stuff but I'm unsure as to whether I can trust a man who can't afford a shirt.
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#14 User is offline   Ben Icon

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 05:52 PM

I suppose it allows more hours in the day to eat, train, and active rest which apparently increases recovery?

If it works don't change it.

But you'll only know by trying it, i would try a couple weeks to a month of 7+ hours sleep, if it makes much or any difference then decide from there.
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#15 User is offline   Paul Icon

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 06:57 PM

6 for a man, 7 for a woman, 8 for a fool.

Margaret Thatcher ran the country for years on just 5 a night. I think that should be your absolute cut-off.
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#16 User is offline   Chet Icon

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 07:26 AM

Cheers folks.

Moved this discussion from my TROG into its own separate topic - ha.
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#17 User is offline   nickyhusky Icon

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 08:06 AM

View PostChet, on Aug 24 2008, 08:26 AM, said:

Cheers folks.

Moved this discussion from my TROG into its own separate topic - ha.


Of course you did. :lol: But are you going to experiement with changing your sleeping habits?

Will - I think you should use the 'm' and 'p' words, as well as other scientific stuff to blind us all with your knowledge.
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#18 User is offline   Will Walshe Icon

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 12:51 PM

I'll try not be too blinding, I've had trouble with that before.

Melatonin and prolactin are just the names of 2 hormones that are produced in your brain when you sleep. They're involved directly and indirectly in a stupid amount of processes around the body. One of the most immeadiately obvious things they do though is impact on your skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity, meaning that if you're not producing enough of them at night you're at best making it an awful lot harder to lose bodyfat than it needs to be.

(The "at worst" is enough to make you go to bed in the middle of the afternoon - http://www.google.co...GL_enUS203US204 )

There's a species of hamster (I think it's called a Syrian Hamster, not sure thouh), that gets studied extensively by obesity researchers. You can actually make these guys obese on demand in the lab by exposing them to different light levels. Give them summertime lighting, their sleep gets affected, you can watch their melatonin levels plummet, which causes a little metabolic cascade (involving things like their brains becoming less sensitive to leptin and prolactin production dropping off) that ends up producing insuling resistance via skyrocketing cortisol levels (the well known, catabolic "stress hormone" that bodybuilders everywhere are so terrified of). The end result of this is that they quickly turn into the rodent equivalent of those monsters that ride scooters around walmarts in order to prepare for the winter famine that their brains are signaling the imminent arrival of.

They're the most dramatic example, but the same thing can be observed to varying degrees in a bunch of different animals that evolved outside of the tropics (where they basically don't have seasons, and food availability is nearly identical all year round). Humans tend to be less amenable to sitting in cages in laboratories for months at a time while researchers expose them to different levels of light, but a lot of the same processes can be observed in sleep deprived humans (especially the increased cortisol). There's some suggestion that lack of sleep (and importantly, lack of sleep near-complete darkness) contributes towards insulin resistance in humans, which leads into the whole carbohyrdrate-craving and getting fat thing in a nasty little negative feedback loop.

Light levels at night are the primarily what controls melatonin production, and the idea of sleeping in total darkness comes from studies conducted in sleep clinics where researchers found that a little fibre optic cable shining some stupidly small amount of light on the backs of the subjects knees was enough to reduce their melatonin levels. Every skin cell seems to be able to act as a tiny little photoreceptor that provides feedback to the brain about light levels, so this doesn't bode well for streetlights shining in your window at night and little lights on alarm clocks pointed towards you, if you start getting interested in higher quality sleep.

If I remember correctly, it takes about 6 hours of continuous melatonin production at night before your brain even starts producing prolactin at all (the hormone that ties into cortisol levels), so if you're sleeping for less than that you're effectively making your training and nutritional endeavours a damn sight more difficult than they should be.

You can read more about all this in Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar and Survival , although it gets WILDLY speculative in many places, and is annoying as hell to read at times. Some of Lyle McDonalds books have a lot more in them about the nitty-gritty of all this homormal stuff too (that's where I read about the hamsters), although oddly his solution to the problem is to take the correct drugs rather than get more sleep.

The take home message is that good sleep is at least as important as good nutrition and good training in the persuit of health and fitness. It doesn't make much sense to persue the extreme minuate of any one or two of them if the third is massively out of whack, it's what my mother would refer to as "chasing mice around the skirting boards while ignoring the bloody great elephant in the middle of the room".

If you really can't get more sleep, there's a couple of things you can do to make sure the bit you do get is at least higher quality:

-black out your bedroom (as in make it so dark you can't see your hand in front of your face)
-avoid staring at bright lights for about 2 hours before bed (this means TV and computer screens are out)
-if you really, really have to stare at screens before bed, wear some red sunglasses to filter the blue light out (blue light is the component of white light most strongly correlated with resetting melatonin production)
-take some magnesium about a half hour before (ZMA is good too). Many people find it leads to more restful sleep, and at the very least it'll probably give you inasne dreams, making being asleep more entertaining.

The smart money is on doing this stuff while also getting more sleep though.

bloody hell, longest post ever!
QUOTE (Ed Flood @ Feb 24 2009, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Reading up on Pavel's stuff but I'm unsure as to whether I can trust a man who can't afford a shirt.
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#19 User is offline   nickyhusky Icon

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 04:44 PM

... and I thought prolactin was something to do with breastfeeding! It probably is that too, unless it's something else beginning with p. I'm sure our resident baby expert, Matt, will know. I've forgotten all my baby knowledge.

Anyway, that stuff's all very interesting. I've read most of it before, and tried to put it into practice, having had insomnia at various times. I just know I'm rubbish without 7+ hours sleep. I can do a couple of nights with less, but that's it, or I turn into Mrs Grump (even more than usual).

So, Chet, are you at all convinced yet??
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#20 User is offline   Paul Icon

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 04:48 PM

My first comment disappeared.

I'd just like to reiterate that medical studies have consistently shown that those who sleep 5 hours a night or less on a regular basis are likely to die earlier than those who regularly sleep for 7 or more.
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