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So why do non of you run? (apart from the odd one) many like to extol the virtues of having a broad based fitness that ticks the boxes. Yet I still see that many are obsessed with the strength side, yet the strength modality is the slowest to lose. I have shown that an above average running ability does not negate developing an above average strength output. The benefits of including a steady state run into ones training certainly outweighs the negative. Or do you seriously think that it is the opposite?
I certainly believe that I could get a sub 19 min 5k and a sub 3.45 marathon while increasing on a 200kg DL with a Bw under 80kg. I just choose at the moment not to DL more than 200, as I have to ask how much strength is enough if I am not specialising?
Or is it the simple fact that you don't like to run? If that is the case? Then accept that as challenge.
I think that adding 1 or 2 Steady state running sessions per a 10 day cycle you will see improvement in your strength gains, just as runners are seeing improvement in times by adding strength sessions.
I absolutely don't accept that a 10-20 min H.I met con gives you the same cardio-respiratory adaptation as steady state run (not jog) run!! I have trained that way and I can certainly vouch that it doesn't.
Thoughts.
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Running?
#1
Mark 
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 07:29 PM
"The idiots are self regarding consumer slaves oblivious to the paradox of their uniform individuality. They sculpt their hair to casual perfection, they wear their waistbands below their balls. They babble into hand-held twit machines about that cool e-mail of the woman being bummed by a wolf. Their cool friend made it. He's an idiot too. Welcome to the age of stupidity, hail the rise of the idiots!"
Charlie Brooker & Chris Morris.
"Don't get hung up on the stopwatch or times, or even weight lifted, think about technique, technique, technique and listening to your body. You will not perform better every session and that is set in stone. Test your self every month keep a written journal not just a forum, a place where you can keep personal notes that you can read to motivate yourself. Don't compare yourself to others when you are working out and likewise do not think that you are already fit as fcuk!!! As someone will always be in front and behind you, ultimate confidence in your abilities yes, but arrogance no, there is a fine line.
But most of all do the things you hate above the things you like or are good at, this will make you a better athlete. Save the things you like for recreational sessions. But ultimately enjoy it, even when you hate it! And finally remember the mind will always give in before the body!"
Here endeth the lesson.
Mark
Coach 'The Box'
The Box training Blog.
The Box mail.
FUBAR
Charlie Brooker & Chris Morris.
"Don't get hung up on the stopwatch or times, or even weight lifted, think about technique, technique, technique and listening to your body. You will not perform better every session and that is set in stone. Test your self every month keep a written journal not just a forum, a place where you can keep personal notes that you can read to motivate yourself. Don't compare yourself to others when you are working out and likewise do not think that you are already fit as fcuk!!! As someone will always be in front and behind you, ultimate confidence in your abilities yes, but arrogance no, there is a fine line.
But most of all do the things you hate above the things you like or are good at, this will make you a better athlete. Save the things you like for recreational sessions. But ultimately enjoy it, even when you hate it! And finally remember the mind will always give in before the body!"
Here endeth the lesson.
Mark
Coach 'The Box'
The Box training Blog.
The Box mail.
FUBAR
MultiQuote
#2
Mister C
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 08:12 PM
Honestly? Think I'm rather guilty of the "beware the sexy metcon" school of thought. I always mean to fit in a steady-state run, but somehow never get round to fitting it in. I'm certainly not anti-it for its own sake, it's just one of those things that gets left out. 
Maximise your training and minimise the bullshit.
#3
chronyx
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 08:31 AM
Used to love it, got up to around 6 miles cross-country, but something weird happened to my little toes and now they hurt running around the block. Probably hammer-toe.
Got an appointment next year to hopefully get it sorted.
Got an appointment next year to hopefully get it sorted.
#4
ROBB
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 01:17 PM
Mark, on 01 December 2010 - 07:29 PM, said:
So why do non of you run? (apart from the odd one) many like to extol the virtues of having a broad based fitness that ticks the boxes. Yet I still see that many are obsessed with the strength side, yet the strength modality is the slowest to lose. I have shown that an above average running ability does not negate developing an above average strength output. The benefits of including a steady state run into ones training certainly outweighs the negative. Or do you seriously think that it is the opposite?
I certainly believe that I could get a sub 19 min 5k and a sub 3.45 marathon while increasing on a 200kg DL with a Bw under 80kg. I just choose at the moment not to DL more than 200, as I have to ask how much strength is enough if I am not specialising?
Or is it the simple fact that you don't like to run? If that is the case? Then accept that as challenge.
I think that adding 1 or 2 Steady state running sessions per a 10 day cycle you will see improvement in your strength gains, just as runners are seeing improvement in times by adding strength sessions.
I absolutely don't accept that a 10-20 min H.I met con gives you the same cardio-respiratory adaptation as steady state run (not jog) run!! I have trained that way and I can certainly vouch that it doesn't.
Thoughts.
I certainly believe that I could get a sub 19 min 5k and a sub 3.45 marathon while increasing on a 200kg DL with a Bw under 80kg. I just choose at the moment not to DL more than 200, as I have to ask how much strength is enough if I am not specialising?
Or is it the simple fact that you don't like to run? If that is the case? Then accept that as challenge.
I think that adding 1 or 2 Steady state running sessions per a 10 day cycle you will see improvement in your strength gains, just as runners are seeing improvement in times by adding strength sessions.
I absolutely don't accept that a 10-20 min H.I met con gives you the same cardio-respiratory adaptation as steady state run (not jog) run!! I have trained that way and I can certainly vouch that it doesn't.
Thoughts.
#5
ROBB
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 01:30 PM
I agree that steady state running will improve overall performance. I run a minimum of 3 times weekly (5kish) and can match those stats.
However i reckon that the HI met-cons arent really comparable to a steady state run. The extremes or a HI met-con are more intense and therefore will compliment the run for training purposes.
As for the strength side of things, it really is hard to loose alot of strength unless you become sedentary.
So my thoughts would be, to do both runs and met-cons, as you are incorporating the extremes of different energy systems, and therefore adapting more thoroughly.
(increased mitachondria production)
on the other hand........maybe im not running fast enough to make it a comparison
However i reckon that the HI met-cons arent really comparable to a steady state run. The extremes or a HI met-con are more intense and therefore will compliment the run for training purposes.
As for the strength side of things, it really is hard to loose alot of strength unless you become sedentary.
So my thoughts would be, to do both runs and met-cons, as you are incorporating the extremes of different energy systems, and therefore adapting more thoroughly.
(increased mitachondria production)
on the other hand........maybe im not running fast enough to make it a comparison
#6
FK Pimp
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 01:37 PM
Shirley (RIP) doing any thing "steady state" would have a similar effect.
I do run, obviously, but am doing other things instead at the moment (rowing for eg).
I do run, obviously, but am doing other things instead at the moment (rowing for eg).
"Pain is weakness leaving the body"
"If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready"
"The mind always gives out before the body. You’ll pass out before you die."
"We'll be as we are when all the fools around us fade away"
"Successful men and women are very careful in reaching decisions and very persistent and determined in action thereafter."
Sponsor me for the Outlaw Iron Distance Tri (Cancer Research) - https://mydonate.bt....s/chrisbarclay1
"If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready"
"The mind always gives out before the body. You’ll pass out before you die."
"We'll be as we are when all the fools around us fade away"
"Successful men and women are very careful in reaching decisions and very persistent and determined in action thereafter."
Sponsor me for the Outlaw Iron Distance Tri (Cancer Research) - https://mydonate.bt....s/chrisbarclay1
#7
Ed Flood
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Posted 04 December 2010 - 01:23 PM
I'm the same as Mr. C in this regard. I have good intentions of fitting in a steady state run but I'm usually knackered after training in the evenings or rushing in the mornings so it gets cut!
"It should be more like birthday party than physics class"
#8 Guest_Cra1g_*
Posted 25 December 2010 - 05:20 PM
I definitely agree with the comments above, recently I went through two distinct endurance phases last year. One training for a 27 mile cross country run across the dales and the other in preparation for the Wolverhampton marathon. I will try keep this short, but this is roughly how the training went...
Phase 1 - Almost daily steady state runs, seldom less than 5 miles in duration with extended runs up to 17 mile on Sundays. Although I did i tempo session a week (on Marks advice... cheers Mark :-)) I did very little strength training or met con.
Result - I completed the race well with big improvements on the previous year, but I felt weak when I returned to strength training and met con sessions. Psychologically I felt like I had thrown all previous gains away.
Phase 2 - Again trained most days with predominantly high intensity tempo runs, hill and sprint sessions. Two of these sessions I finished with met con sessions such as Tabata squats to try maintain as much of the strength I had re-gained prior to the endurance phase. I also completed one long steady state run on Sundays (up to 20 miles).
Result - Within three weeks of the marathon I had lost 10% on my dead lift and 15% from my squat and bench press.
Take from this what you will, but I think the claims by Mark are entirely accurate. I believe that a steady state run of more than 10k is only beneficial for during a specific endurance phase in prep for an event and only for the two reasons:
A) Mentally prepare you for the slower speed you often have to run during a long distance event and
To conduct a recce of the route!
Sorry about the war and piece, but hope it helps.
PS... one of the events I am talking about above I ran with Mark... his number was 118... priceless!!! :-)
Phase 1 - Almost daily steady state runs, seldom less than 5 miles in duration with extended runs up to 17 mile on Sundays. Although I did i tempo session a week (on Marks advice... cheers Mark :-)) I did very little strength training or met con.
Result - I completed the race well with big improvements on the previous year, but I felt weak when I returned to strength training and met con sessions. Psychologically I felt like I had thrown all previous gains away.
Phase 2 - Again trained most days with predominantly high intensity tempo runs, hill and sprint sessions. Two of these sessions I finished with met con sessions such as Tabata squats to try maintain as much of the strength I had re-gained prior to the endurance phase. I also completed one long steady state run on Sundays (up to 20 miles).
Result - Within three weeks of the marathon I had lost 10% on my dead lift and 15% from my squat and bench press.
Take from this what you will, but I think the claims by Mark are entirely accurate. I believe that a steady state run of more than 10k is only beneficial for during a specific endurance phase in prep for an event and only for the two reasons:
A) Mentally prepare you for the slower speed you often have to run during a long distance event and
To conduct a recce of the route!Sorry about the war and piece, but hope it helps.
PS... one of the events I am talking about above I ran with Mark... his number was 118... priceless!!! :-)
#9
Gubernatrix
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Posted 07 January 2011 - 04:27 PM
Mark, on 01 December 2010 - 07:29 PM, said:
I think that adding 1 or 2 Steady state running sessions per a 10 day cycle you will see improvement in your strength gains, just as runners are seeing improvement in times by adding strength sessions.
How does steady state running help my strength gains?
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#10
Mark
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Posted 08 January 2011 - 07:52 PM
@Gubes... Happy New year.
Firstly I am looking at strength gains and adaptation while training under the 'Broad General & Inclusive' banner, which the majority of people are doing on here. Working at sub maximal strength gains & adaptations, which I do think LIMITED extended 'cardio' work can benefit. I may have to refer to the black box theory of 'this goes in & this comes out' WHY? I don't know and I don't care type of reasoning.
However I would also say that a steady state sub maximal run/bike/row etc will obviously give you an improved and more efficient cardio-vascular system with increased oxygen uptake, which in any instance is of benefit for any physical output, of course people will say what I do is anaerobic (without oxygen) that’s the energy system that is utilized during the movement, however what is fundamentally the first thing you do prior to any movement? You load the muscles with oxygen! And the more the better.
I will also state that if you are training for maximal strength? Then excessive running will of course have a negative effect, but I will still say that the added benefit to the 'CV' system overall of say two steady state run/jog will have a positive effect if utilized in a active rest type scenario, 5k or less would I think be sufficient. In the terms of active rest it would certainly benefit the mind by being away from the gym or conversely participate in an aerobic based sport for similar benefits.
Going back to my first points and the 'Broad General & Inclusive' cliché. I will also have to come from it empirically. Firstly using myself, at my peak of broad spectrum training I was dead lifting 202.5kg at a BW of 78g giving me a 260% lift, simultaneously I was running 5km in less than 18 min & running mountain marathons in sub 5hrs and I was still incrementally improving in all areas of strength, obviously with a lesser rate than if I was training for maximal strength, but that was not what I was getting at in the initial post.
I will then look at the evidence that was presented before me as the coach of the box, with guys and gals I worked with, in particular 'Robb, Craig & Darren' who all had massive strength gains while improving their running. Robb being a sub 20 min 5k runner and a 200kg plus dead lifter, Darren a sub 18 min 5k and deadlift from initially being less than 100kg and getting to 160kg by the time the box ceased its weekly sessions and he was also a member of a running club where he was becoming unbeatable. Craig was a 190kg + deadlifter and a 3hr marathoner. I could go on with some of the others but that would be pointless here, however the evidence was and is to great for me too ignore as a coach.
The true how's and whys can be left to the scientists who are forward thinking and not wearing blinkers, as all of the deeper physiological reactions and adaptations caused are above me, but it worked so I keep it in my arsenal, if it didn't I would bin it.
The post was aimed at the 'Broad General & Inclusive' athletes here mainly, My main interest was in the fact that they tend to always lean towards the strength side of training which seems to overpower the training programmes of many which I suppose is a foible of the modern male in general. And the main point was, the inclusion of Running if utilized correctly will not have the negative effect that many beilieve, it will only improve them as a 'Broad General & Inclusive' athlete.
Firstly I am looking at strength gains and adaptation while training under the 'Broad General & Inclusive' banner, which the majority of people are doing on here. Working at sub maximal strength gains & adaptations, which I do think LIMITED extended 'cardio' work can benefit. I may have to refer to the black box theory of 'this goes in & this comes out' WHY? I don't know and I don't care type of reasoning.
However I would also say that a steady state sub maximal run/bike/row etc will obviously give you an improved and more efficient cardio-vascular system with increased oxygen uptake, which in any instance is of benefit for any physical output, of course people will say what I do is anaerobic (without oxygen) that’s the energy system that is utilized during the movement, however what is fundamentally the first thing you do prior to any movement? You load the muscles with oxygen! And the more the better.
I will also state that if you are training for maximal strength? Then excessive running will of course have a negative effect, but I will still say that the added benefit to the 'CV' system overall of say two steady state run/jog will have a positive effect if utilized in a active rest type scenario, 5k or less would I think be sufficient. In the terms of active rest it would certainly benefit the mind by being away from the gym or conversely participate in an aerobic based sport for similar benefits.
Going back to my first points and the 'Broad General & Inclusive' cliché. I will also have to come from it empirically. Firstly using myself, at my peak of broad spectrum training I was dead lifting 202.5kg at a BW of 78g giving me a 260% lift, simultaneously I was running 5km in less than 18 min & running mountain marathons in sub 5hrs and I was still incrementally improving in all areas of strength, obviously with a lesser rate than if I was training for maximal strength, but that was not what I was getting at in the initial post.
I will then look at the evidence that was presented before me as the coach of the box, with guys and gals I worked with, in particular 'Robb, Craig & Darren' who all had massive strength gains while improving their running. Robb being a sub 20 min 5k runner and a 200kg plus dead lifter, Darren a sub 18 min 5k and deadlift from initially being less than 100kg and getting to 160kg by the time the box ceased its weekly sessions and he was also a member of a running club where he was becoming unbeatable. Craig was a 190kg + deadlifter and a 3hr marathoner. I could go on with some of the others but that would be pointless here, however the evidence was and is to great for me too ignore as a coach.
The true how's and whys can be left to the scientists who are forward thinking and not wearing blinkers, as all of the deeper physiological reactions and adaptations caused are above me, but it worked so I keep it in my arsenal, if it didn't I would bin it.
The post was aimed at the 'Broad General & Inclusive' athletes here mainly, My main interest was in the fact that they tend to always lean towards the strength side of training which seems to overpower the training programmes of many which I suppose is a foible of the modern male in general. And the main point was, the inclusion of Running if utilized correctly will not have the negative effect that many beilieve, it will only improve them as a 'Broad General & Inclusive' athlete.
"The idiots are self regarding consumer slaves oblivious to the paradox of their uniform individuality. They sculpt their hair to casual perfection, they wear their waistbands below their balls. They babble into hand-held twit machines about that cool e-mail of the woman being bummed by a wolf. Their cool friend made it. He's an idiot too. Welcome to the age of stupidity, hail the rise of the idiots!"
Charlie Brooker & Chris Morris.
"Don't get hung up on the stopwatch or times, or even weight lifted, think about technique, technique, technique and listening to your body. You will not perform better every session and that is set in stone. Test your self every month keep a written journal not just a forum, a place where you can keep personal notes that you can read to motivate yourself. Don't compare yourself to others when you are working out and likewise do not think that you are already fit as fcuk!!! As someone will always be in front and behind you, ultimate confidence in your abilities yes, but arrogance no, there is a fine line.
But most of all do the things you hate above the things you like or are good at, this will make you a better athlete. Save the things you like for recreational sessions. But ultimately enjoy it, even when you hate it! And finally remember the mind will always give in before the body!"
Here endeth the lesson.
Mark
Coach 'The Box'
The Box training Blog.
The Box mail.
FUBAR
Charlie Brooker & Chris Morris.
"Don't get hung up on the stopwatch or times, or even weight lifted, think about technique, technique, technique and listening to your body. You will not perform better every session and that is set in stone. Test your self every month keep a written journal not just a forum, a place where you can keep personal notes that you can read to motivate yourself. Don't compare yourself to others when you are working out and likewise do not think that you are already fit as fcuk!!! As someone will always be in front and behind you, ultimate confidence in your abilities yes, but arrogance no, there is a fine line.
But most of all do the things you hate above the things you like or are good at, this will make you a better athlete. Save the things you like for recreational sessions. But ultimately enjoy it, even when you hate it! And finally remember the mind will always give in before the body!"
Here endeth the lesson.
Mark
Coach 'The Box'
The Box training Blog.
The Box mail.
FUBAR
#11
Gubernatrix
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Posted 09 January 2011 - 06:04 PM
Interesting. I see what you are getting at.
I do think that active rest is under-utilised by strength athletes. Personally I use walking and sometimes a bit of kettlebelling or circuit training. I don't think it makes you stronger directly, but it helps make you a fitter and more mobile human being, and that can help you get stronger or at least tolerate more training.
I do think that active rest is under-utilised by strength athletes. Personally I use walking and sometimes a bit of kettlebelling or circuit training. I don't think it makes you stronger directly, but it helps make you a fitter and more mobile human being, and that can help you get stronger or at least tolerate more training.
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