[chrisap]

http://www.flocasts....k...54&vid=9592

I apologise if any of you have already seen this vid over at RT, but it has caused a bit of a stir over there, mainly because of the "form" in some of the exercises. Whatever they are doing, it certainly works - apparently they have won many many titles. And are "Hand Cleans" a legit exercise?! I had never heard of them before now...

[Gubernatrix]

No, he said "hang cleans" (cleans from the hang position) but whoever edited the video didn't hear him correctly!

Interesting stuff. I haven't caught the discussion on Ross Training yet. My initial reaction is that the benefits of that kind of training are probably mostly psychological and emotional. They are doing "tough" workouts, really going for it, putting themselves through the pain and throwing heavy weights around. It probably makes them feel good and tough and better than everyone else - and maybe that's where the formula for success comes from.

This stuff is just conditioning, it's not the main part of their training. It's a pysche-out exercise. Yes, it looks pretty silly and we all know that this is not the most effective way to get stronger but I can see how it sort of replicates wrestling movements.

The other possibility is that they are winning despite this training and not because of it.

[Chet]

Do you have a link to the discussion Chris?

[chrisap]

Gubernatrix, on Mar 31 2008, 10:55 PM, said:

No, he said "hang cleans" (cleans from the hang position) but whoever edited the video didn't hear him correctly!

Interesting stuff. I haven't caught the discussion on Ross Training yet. My initial reaction is that the benefits of that kind of training are probably mostly psychological and emotional. They are doing "tough" workouts, really going for it, putting themselves through the pain and throwing heavy weights around. It probably makes them feel good and tough and better than everyone else - and maybe that's where the formula for success comes from.

This stuff is just conditioning, it's not the main part of their training. It's a pysche-out exercise. Yes, it looks pretty silly and we all know that this is not the most effective way to get stronger but I can see how it sort of replicates wrestling movements.

The other possibility is that they are winning despite this training and not because of it.

Those sprints at the start looked pretty horrid

I thought as much, I could see they were Hang Cleans but then I hadn't ever seen or done a Power Curl or whatever, so I wasn't sure. I agree with you on most of the points. It seems like detractors of the video have mainly been concentrating on what they see as poor technique/form which could lead to injury, and this is countered with the fact that a) we aren't seeing their full regime (this video is probably the most interesting hence why it has been put out), b ) that they aren't in any danger of hurting themselves and c) like you point out, the movements in some way replicate what they would do to wrestle. I think Ross made a good point that they aren't competing in a pull up competition. Either way, they are obviously very dedicated and that deserves some admiration at least. I read somewhere else someone saying that it's nothing to do with their training, or at least the methods we see in the video, but rather Iowa State consistently attracts top calibre athletes, moreso than some other places. Athletes still have to train hard though.

[chrisap]

Here you go, Chet: http://www.rosstrain...pic.php?t=27351

[Red]

I think the vid is great! The guys obviously have fantastic coaches and I would not begin to comment on coaching methods. I think you just need to look at the results of these guys at the top of their game, speaks louder than words. The whole point of their training is specific to their goals and I completely agree about not executing perfect form because of the nature of their sport. In fact it is quite refreshing to listen to someone who knows what they are talking about.

[Gubernatrix]

I'm quite surprised to hear that from a Crossfitter actually! Aren't Crossfit people real sticklers for form?

[Red]

Form HAS to suffer under fatigue, or to lift heavier. Dont get me wrong I do stress correct form to all my clients, it is not an option. What I am saying is if you are going for a max lift and your form is not spot on, so what. In fact dont think anyone can say they have excellent form on all lifts!

[chrisap]

I think it's all good, coach obviously knows what's going on and it's working ;-)

What scared me was the size of that arena they had, I mean we just don't have that kind of stuff over here at uni level really...

[Gubernatrix]

chrisap, on Apr 1 2008, 10:49 AM, said:

I think it's all good, coach obviously knows what's going on and it's working ;-)

Ye--es but there seems to be a lot of pressure on coaches in the States and maybe some less-than-scrupulous coaches might be tempted to put their athletes through unsafe training in order to get results, rather than think about what those guys might suffer in a few years' time.

I'm not saying this applies to this particular coach, but I would hesitate to say 'the results speak for themselves' because that's not the only issue where individuals are concerned.

I dunno, I'm no expert. Maybe they are not doing any more damage than would be done by undertaking the sport anyway. Obviously it's difficult to reach the top unscathed in such a demanding physical activity.

[chrisap]

Gubernatrix, on Apr 1 2008, 11:02 AM, said:

Ye--es but there seems to be a lot of pressure on coaches in the States and maybe some less-than-scrupulous coaches might be tempted to put their athletes through unsafe training in order to get results, rather than think about what those guys might suffer in a few years' time.

I'm not saying this applies to this particular coach, but I would hesitate to say 'the results speak for themselves' because that's not the only issue where individuals are concerned.

I dunno, I'm no expert. Maybe they are not doing any more damage than would be done by undertaking the sport anyway. Obviously it's difficult to reach the top unscathed in such a demanding physical activity.

I'm not sure if it's the same guy as in the vid, but Cael Sanderson is an Olympian and I think he coaches IS, so you'd hope he would know what he was doing. Could be wrong. I agree with you Gubernatrix about the pressures on the coaches etc.

[Andy]

I have a small view on this.

They are big strong guys with what looks like some real raw power regardless of how they are lifting. Funny enough when I watched the video at 5.39 in it stopped and the guy doing the barbell curl was practically horizontal. This may replicate to some extent their sport but he was still trying to get the barbell going up straight as apposed towards him as you may do throwing an opponent.

Also, I may be mistaken so please pick me up if I am but while doing strength work is it not best to leave isolation exercises till after the major lifts if not irradicating them from the session all together. Burn out on arms followed by heavy back exercises just seems to defeat the object.

Regarding form, to get the most efficient lift it is best to keep good form. The spine is much stronger in proper form as apposed to when it is all bent out of shape by hyperkyphosis/lordosis. If they are looking at exercises that mimic their sport then possibly heavy sandbags or similar and get them to throw them as you would an opponent outside of this session. Resistance band work to work on power of movement etc etc. Doing a clean with proper form would allow them to get more weight up i am sure. Would work on explosive power as well as increasing the weight of their deadlift and front squat should they do full clean.

The guy is obviously doing something right as they are top of the pile but just thought i'd add my 2 pence worth.

My soap box is getting slippery so i'll step off while i still can.

[chrisap]

Just for those who haven't seen the whole thread on Ross Training, here are a couple of posts:

SilverBullet wrote:
For anyone who is interested, The University of Iowa Hawkeyes won the NCAA Div. I Team title just last Saturday. I believe they finished well ahead of the second place team and they had one individual national champion, 149 lber. Brent Metcalf, there are several clips of him in the video. I believe Metcalf also won the Outstanding Wrestler award, and he is in the best shape out of any college wrestler out there, so their hard work is obviously paying off. Their weight training is only one of many ingredients to their success, but it is proven to be very effective.


tdschnei wrote:
Yes, Metcalf is an absolute machine. Here's a link to the match if you wanna see how much his conditioning can break someone:

Part 1:http://video.google.com/videop.....;plindex=1

Part 2:http://video.google.com/videop.....;plindex=0

He basically got his ass whooped in the first period, and then ends up winning by 6 (most college wrestlers wouldn't be able to come from behind a 3 point deficit and he did it and then score 6 more points).